Comments on: Old-school Christianity Sux Eggs http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/ To carry love into every moment, in the way of Jesus. Mon, 07 Jun 2010 12:52:42 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Angela http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-82 Angela Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:02:11 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-82 @rebeca Thanks for your comments. I love that about the Orthodox church. I appreciate your sharing! :) @everybody Sorry for taking so long to respond. Been thinking... One lesson I keep having to learn over and over is that it's our own insides we work on (God works on) when we follow this path. I forget, and get reminded, and forget again. I'm grateful to get to learn it again. :) I love you (all) and I'm sorry for pushing back in this way. I'm also really joyful about the reminder that I have to own this. Instead of asking other people to speak up, I can just... speak up. Prepare yourselves for a more vocal but less blaming version of Angela. :) Thanks, everybody, for the conversation. @rebeca Thanks for your comments. I love that about the Orthodox church. I appreciate your sharing! :)

@everybody Sorry for taking so long to respond. Been thinking… One lesson I keep having to learn over and over is that it’s our own insides we work on (God works on) when we follow this path. I forget, and get reminded, and forget again.

I’m grateful to get to learn it again. :) I love you (all) and I’m sorry for pushing back in this way. I’m also really joyful about the reminder that I have to own this. Instead of asking other people to speak up, I can just… speak up.

Prepare yourselves for a more vocal but less blaming version of Angela. :)

Thanks, everybody, for the conversation.

]]> By: Rebeca http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-81 Rebeca Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:56:37 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-81 Hey, I just went back and read some of the previous comments, and hope I didn't contribute further to you feeling sad. That was not my intent at all. Obviously I was jumping in late in the conversation, and I don't know you at all, so wasn't wanting to cause further discord or anything. Blessings! Hey, I just went back and read some of the previous comments, and hope I didn’t contribute further to you feeling sad. That was not my intent at all. Obviously I was jumping in late in the conversation, and I don’t know you at all, so wasn’t wanting to cause further discord or anything. Blessings!

]]> By: Rebeca http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-80 Rebeca Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:40:11 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-80 I found your site through the WAPF forum and have been interested in checking out who you are. :> How could I resist something called the Radical Love Project? First off, let me just say that I'm coming from a completely old-skool Christianity, but possibly not what you are familiar with. We're talking OLD-skool! I'm a recovering Protestant who now finds a home and roots in the Eastern Church. I thought it might interest you that Orthodox Christians have a different view of this topic than do Western (Protestant and Roman Catholic.) Fairly early on the Church was geographically divided into East and West, Rome being the West and the rest of Christendom the East. Theologies began to diverge; in Rome theology was formed in a very "judicial" way. In the East theology grew up out of worship. Protestantism, for whatever break it made from Rome, is still a child of the West, and resembles Roman doctrine in it's "judicial" understanding of salvation. In the Christian East we see God as a loving Father and salvation as a product of our loving and obedient childlike response to Him. It is holistic, reaching all areas of life, understanding the inherent connection between our body and soul. Sin is viewed more as a "sickness" than a "crime"; thus what we are in need of is healing. And our Father, through Christ the Son, through the Work of the Holy Spirit, and through the mystical sacraments of the Church, longs to heal us, to restore us to the original "image and likeness" of God in which He created us. Anyway, I come not to argue, but simply to throw in another perspective; that if you go far enough back in Christian history you will find what the early church believed about what Jesus did on the cross. We chant at Pascha (the feast of the Resurrection) "Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life." We view his surrender to death as, like you said, the ultimate participation in our humanity, and by His resurrection, His triumph over the curse of death and the restoration of all humankind to Himself. So, what you are referring to as "old-skool" Christian doctrine is really fairly new on the scene. :> I offer you this, the words of Orthodox writer Frederica Mathewes-Green. If you are interested in the rest of the article you can find it here: http://www.frederica.com/writings/sin-infection-or-infraction.html "Orthodox, of course, have a completely different understanding of Christ’s saving work. We hold to the view of the early church, that "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself." Our sins made us captives of Death, and God in Christ went into Hades to set us free. The penalty of sin is not a debt we owe the Father; it is the soul-death that is the immediate and inevitable consequence of sin. We need healing and rescue, not someone to step in and square the bill. The early Christians always saw the Father pursuing and loving every sinner, doing everything to bring us back, not waiting with arms folded for a debt to be paid. When the Prodigal Son came home, the Father didn’t say, "I’d love to take you back, but who’s going to pay this Visa bill?....We would say that Western Christians, Protestant and Catholic, have mixed up two Scriptural concepts: "sacrifice/offering" and "ransom/payment." Jesus couldn’t have paid the "ransom" for our sins to the Father; you pay a ransom to a kidnapper, and the Father wasn’t holding us hostage. No, it was the Evil One who had captured us, due to our voluntary involvement in sin. It cost Jesus his blood to enter Hades and set us free. That’s the payment, or ransom, but it obviously isn’t paid *to* the Father. Yet it is a sacrifice or offering to the Father, as a brave soldier might offer a dangerous act of courage to his beloved General." Many blessings, Rebeca I found your site through the WAPF forum and have been interested in checking out who you are. :> How could I resist something called the Radical Love Project?
First off, let me just say that I’m coming from a completely old-skool Christianity, but possibly not what you are familiar with. We’re talking OLD-skool! I’m a recovering Protestant who now finds a home and roots in the Eastern Church. I thought it might interest you that Orthodox Christians have a different view of this topic than do Western (Protestant and Roman Catholic.) Fairly early on the Church was geographically divided into East and West, Rome being the West and the rest of Christendom the East. Theologies began to diverge; in Rome theology was formed in a very “judicial” way. In the East theology grew up out of worship. Protestantism, for whatever break it made from Rome, is still a child of the West, and resembles Roman doctrine in it’s “judicial” understanding of salvation. In the Christian East we see God as a loving Father and salvation as a product of our loving and obedient childlike response to Him. It is holistic, reaching all areas of life, understanding the inherent connection between our body and soul. Sin is viewed more as a “sickness” than a “crime”; thus what we are in need of is healing. And our Father, through Christ the Son, through the Work of the Holy Spirit, and through the mystical sacraments of the Church, longs to heal us, to restore us to the original “image and likeness” of God in which He created us.
Anyway, I come not to argue, but simply to throw in another perspective; that if you go far enough back in Christian history you will find what the early church believed about what Jesus did on the cross. We chant at Pascha (the feast of the Resurrection) “Christ is Risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.” We view his surrender to death as, like you said, the ultimate participation in our humanity, and by His resurrection, His triumph over the curse of death and the restoration of all humankind to Himself.
So, what you are referring to as “old-skool” Christian doctrine is really fairly new on the scene. :>
I offer you this, the words of Orthodox writer Frederica Mathewes-Green. If you are interested in the rest of the article you can find it here: http://www.frederica.com/writings/sin-infection-or-infraction.html
“Orthodox, of course, have a completely different understanding of Christ’s saving work. We hold to the view of the early church, that “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself.” Our sins made us captives of Death, and God in Christ went into Hades to set us free. The penalty of sin is not a debt we owe the Father; it is the soul-death that is the immediate and inevitable consequence of sin. We need healing and rescue, not someone to step in and square the bill. The early Christians always saw the Father pursuing and loving every sinner, doing everything to bring us back, not waiting with arms folded for a debt to be paid. When the Prodigal Son came home, the Father didn’t say, “I’d love to take you back, but who’s going to pay this Visa bill?….We would say that Western Christians, Protestant and Catholic, have mixed up two Scriptural concepts: “sacrifice/offering” and “ransom/payment.” Jesus couldn’t have paid the “ransom” for our sins to the Father; you pay a ransom to a kidnapper, and the Father wasn’t holding us hostage. No, it was the Evil One who had captured us, due to our voluntary involvement in sin. It cost Jesus his blood to enter Hades and set us free. That’s the payment, or ransom, but it obviously isn’t paid *to* the Father. Yet it is a sacrifice or offering to the Father, as a brave soldier might offer a dangerous act of courage to his beloved General.”
Many blessings,
Rebeca

]]> By: Jim Marks http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-77 Jim Marks Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:32:02 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-77 We've been talking about two different things, I think. Please refer to my comments throughout this conversation, most particularly the very short one at the bottom. We’ve been talking about two different things, I think. Please refer to my comments throughout this conversation, most particularly the very short one at the bottom.

]]> By: Tracy http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-74 Tracy Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:19:23 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-74 If Angela is correct in seeing this idea as absent from the substantive works of those she's talking about, why would she need to defend the claim that this idea is best omitted? Such an effort seems peripheral to the thing she hoped to communicate. If Angela is correct in seeing this idea as absent from the substantive works of those she’s talking about, why would she need to defend the claim that this idea is best omitted? Such an effort seems peripheral to the thing she hoped to communicate.

]]> By: Jim Marks http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-73 Jim Marks Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:49:14 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-73 Now I feel as though I must have offended you. And that's unfortunate. You wrote: "Just for the record OF COURSE IT’S WRONG." And it was to that, and really only to that, I have been responding. I know where you heart is and I affirm that. Completely. I just wanted to caution against that kind of statement. I don't think it is likely to create conversation with much of anyone, because it -sounds- dogmatic. It sounds like your mind is made up, and you're fed up with everyone who hasn't figured that out, yet. I'm sorry if the way I expressed that came off as overly harsh. Now I feel as though I must have offended you. And that’s unfortunate. You wrote:

“Just for the record OF COURSE IT’S WRONG.”

And it was to that, and really only to that, I have been responding.

I know where you heart is and I affirm that. Completely.

I just wanted to caution against that kind of statement. I don’t think it is likely to create conversation with much of anyone, because it -sounds- dogmatic. It sounds like your mind is made up, and you’re fed up with everyone who hasn’t figured that out, yet.

I’m sorry if the way I expressed that came off as overly harsh.

]]> By: Angela http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-72 Angela Thu, 04 Jun 2009 17:52:47 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-72 Holding an opinion, even strongly, is not the same as holding it dogmatically. I am open to discussion about the substitutionary atonement theory. I'm open to discussion about all kinds of things I think are false. But that wasn't the topic. The topic was emergent leaders being reluctant to stand up and say what they really believe... [Edit: removed whiny crap.] I am feeling sad, empty inside. I think it's about wanting connection, to be seen for who I am. I'm gonna go work on getting that need met. Doesn't seem likely it will be met here, so I'm not going to reply any further. If anybody really wants more engagement on this, let me know, and we'll work on heart-connection, on really hearing each other. Holding an opinion, even strongly, is not the same as holding it dogmatically. I am open to discussion about the substitutionary atonement theory. I’m open to discussion about all kinds of things I think are false.

But that wasn’t the topic. The topic was emergent leaders being reluctant to stand up and say what they really believe…

[Edit: removed whiny crap.]

I am feeling sad, empty inside. I think it’s about wanting connection, to be seen for who I am. I’m gonna go work on getting that need met. Doesn’t seem likely it will be met here, so I’m not going to reply any further. If anybody really wants more engagement on this, let me know, and we’ll work on heart-connection, on really hearing each other.

]]> By: Jim Marks http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-71 Jim Marks Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:28:05 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-71 While she hasn't necessarily made a claim that some particular thing is true, she has made a definitive claim that some particular thing is false. She made it forcefully and without defense. Dogma can exist in the rejection of something just as much as it can exist in the affirmation of something. While she hasn’t necessarily made a claim that some particular thing is true, she has made a definitive claim that some particular thing is false. She made it forcefully and without defense. Dogma can exist in the rejection of something just as much as it can exist in the affirmation of something.

]]> By: Jim Marks http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-70 Jim Marks Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:24:17 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-70 Agreed. We're all dancing a very fine line between being passionate about our beliefs and that place where our passion gets away from us. If I didn't have some insight into where your heart is at I wouldn't bother to offer up the suggestions I am, here. Agreed. We’re all dancing a very fine line between being passionate about our beliefs and that place where our passion gets away from us.

If I didn’t have some insight into where your heart is at I wouldn’t bother to offer up the suggestions I am, here.

]]> By: Theresa Seeber http://radicalloveproject.com/2009/06/old-school-sux/comment-page-1/#comment-69 Theresa Seeber Thu, 04 Jun 2009 05:10:27 +0000 http://radicalloveproject.com/?p=114#comment-69 Angela! Have we told you lately that we love you, that no amount of ranting will change that? I see you are speaking from your heart, and I know you are strong and can withstand some disagreement. Don't let yourself think we are upset with you k? Debate gets lively, it is not personal. We love you! And nobody here claims to have all the answers. Thank you for the place to discuss these things. You are a safe hostess. We know that. I pray we are safe for you too emotionally. Let us always remember the tender heart of a woman when we engage in this way. Especially here. 'Cuz we're friends. :-) Angela! Have we told you lately that we love you, that no amount of ranting will change that? I see you are speaking from your heart, and I know you are strong and can withstand some disagreement. Don’t let yourself think we are upset with you k? Debate gets lively, it is not personal. We love you! And nobody here claims to have all the answers. Thank you for the place to discuss these things. You are a safe hostess. We know that. I pray we are safe for you too emotionally. Let us always remember the tender heart of a woman when we engage in this way. Especially here. ‘Cuz we’re friends. :-)

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